Double Weekly Roundup: Then We Fight On That Lie Edition

This is a tale of two “underground” discussion groups. I’ll call them “underground” because they don’t conduct their business out in public via Facebook or LinkedIn or Twitter or whatever. Perhaps you’ve noticed lately how many people have simply stopped speaking their minds in public about anything. That’s because

a) they have jobs;
b) they want to keep them.

The window for permissible public discourse is shrinking at an astonishing rate; we are in the middle of a massive purity spiral in which yesterday’s attempt to be “woke” or to be to an “ally” will get you “dragged” today by the same people who just finished applauding you. Here’s an example: Last week, a pretty large coalition of online sex workers decided that they would give free subscriptions to their “OnlyFans” websites to anyone who made a contribution to Black Lives Matter or one of the various celebrity bail funds. (“OnlyFans”, for those of you who are not Extremely Online is a monthly subscription service to erotic photos and/or videos of individual sex workers.)

Now here’s where it becomes “problematic”. Most of the women involved were white and perceived to be “privileged”. So a backlash quickly developed among SWoC (Sex Workers of Color) who accused the white women of

a) using the #BLM cause to build awareness of their own brand;
b) “undercutting” SWoC who actually needed the subscription fees to exist.

People started making lists of “real allies” and “fake allies” and “colonizers” and whatnot. Many of the original “allies” made groveling apologies which were promptly not accepted! Others made open appeals to the community along the lines of… Should I not give the money to #BLM? Should I give other money to #BLM? Should I just quit the business out of shame? As of now, there’s no consensus on the matter. Only one thing is certain: today’s “right answer” probably won’t cut the mustard tomorrow.

Back to my two discussion groups. They couldn’t be much more different in attitude. One of them is young men making good money in various trades from finance to manufacturing, with a light-blue-collar tint. The other is mostly fiftyish-and-older fellows with serious backgrounds in academia, law, and a few one-percent-of-one-percent occupations. Yet they’ve both fractured in precisely the same way with regards to recent events, splitting into groups which assert either that:

a) the recent social unrest is manufactured by a corrupt media which is promoting a poisonous agenda to people who have trusted them to verify the facts behind the assertions used to stir the unrest;
b) all cops are, in fact, bastards. Therefore, the current goals of the Uniparty movement to #DefundThePolice and whatnot are completely justified.

You wouldn’t be able to guess the stances of the individuals based on their biographies. There’s a fellow who has spent much of his life partying in highly illegal fashion on boats and who is a strong supporter of the police, while a celebrated attorney with ties to famous-in-movies-and-television cases is firmly on the other side of the issue. Since everyone involved has something close to a classical education, there have been quite a few facts, figures, and sources cited in furtherance of various argument, but there have also been plenty of personal and second anecdotes involved.

This week there’s been some discussion of Heather MacDonald’s WSJ article, The Myth Of Systematic Police Racism. It’s not exactly a dispassionate examination, taking shots at both Joe Biden and Chicago’s murder rate, but that’s frosting surrounding a fairly unequivocal cake of statistics:

In 2019 police officers fatally shot 1,004 people, most of whom were armed or otherwise dangerous. African-Americans were about a quarter of those killed by cops last year (235), a ratio that has remained stable since 2015. That share of black victims is less than what the black crime rate would predict, since police shootings are a function of how often officers encounter armed and violent suspects. In 2018, the latest year for which such data have been published, African-Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and commit about 60% of robberies, though they are 13% of the population.

The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. The Post defines “unarmed” broadly to include such cases as a suspect in Newark, N.J., who had a loaded handgun in his car during a police chase. In 2018 there were 7,407 black homicide victims. Assuming a comparable number of victims last year, those nine unarmed black victims of police shootings represent 0.1% of all African-Americans killed in 2019. By contrast, a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer.

I bolded her last statement because I think there’s some bad math involved, or at very least some questionable assumptions. I’m pretty sure that you could use the same math to say something like, “A Wendy’s cashier is 18.5 times more likely to be yelled at in a dispute regarding the Frosty machine being down than a random person off the street is to yell at a Wendy’s cashier.” You get the idea. Police are in the habit of dealing with dangerous people. It’s their job. But there’s a flip side to that, and it’s time: for many people, the most dangerous person with whom they will ever interact is… a police officer.

The rest of MacDonald’s assertions appear to stand up, both mathematically and anecdotally. For every George Floyd, there is at least one Tony Timpa. The last time the federal government decided to burn children alive — twenty-five of them, thanks to an actual tank — all the kids were white. The black community has Eric Garner, who died because police egregiously over-reacted to his demeanor during an arrest for selling loose cigarettes; whites have Vicki Weaver, who was deliberately shot in the head by federal agent Lon Horiuchi while she cradled her infant. (Weaver’s crime? Her husband sawed a shotgun barrel one-quarter-inch shorter than the legal limit, on a line drawn by a federal informant.)

MacDonald and the Uniparty do agree on something: police in the United States do kill a lot of people compared to police elsewhere in the world. Logically speaking, this can only be because

a) American police are more violent by nature and training;
b) American citizens are more violent by nature and training;
c) both of the above.

The answer is clearly c), but why? Left-wing sources would tell you that it’s the “American gun culture”, while right-wing sources might cite the violence-glorifying cultures of various ethnic/social minority groups within the country, from the Crips to the bootleggers. I have a theory, and it is this: Frontiers have typically been places of violence. Border towns have also typically been places of violence. This was a frontier country well into the early Twentieth Century, but it’s also always been the world’s largest border town, whether you’re talking about the Five Points of New York’s Civil War era or modern-day Minneapolis. We have always placed diverse groups in direct contact, whether through accident or deliberate plan, then acted surprised when there was conflict as a result.

History shows us that most frontiers, and most border towns, have been lawless by default, and that any attempts at policing said areas have long been both capricious and violent. And so it is with America. Is there another way? The city of Minneapolis has announced that they are going to replace their police force with an as-yet-to-be-defined “community-based” alternative. This announcement was met with considerable approval from the media — and a sharp uptick in real-estate listings within the affected area. A group of people in Seattle have set up an “Autonomous Zone” around a burned-out precinct building in which the police are not welcome, run in loose fashion by a locally famous rapper; they almost immediately ran out of food, there have been numerous assaults in the zone, and apparently one of the organizers has confessed to being a rapist.

Clearly we are a long way from finding a true alternative to American policing, and any process by which that alternative is found will have some horrifying consequences along the way. It’s also clear that this will never be a discussion about raw facts or statistics. Your chance of being killed by a police officer in this country on any given year, as an African-American or any other kind of person, is one in 500,000 or thereabouts; your chance of being struck by lightning is 700,000. This is an emotional discussion, not a statistical one. And if the assertion being made by every media source, every corporation, every social-media account in America, the one about how police are downright eager to kill people of color — if that is a lie? As Slim Charles tells Avon Barksdale in the video clip above, it doesn’t matter. If it’s a lie, then we are all going to fight on that lie. For a long time to come.

* * *

At Hagerty I wrote about the charmed life of first owners, American alternatives to Alfa Romeo, and the annoyance of real race cars.

68 Replies to “Double Weekly Roundup: Then We Fight On That Lie Edition”

  1. AvatarSteve Taylor

    I suppose next week we should settle the political/social and economic ramification of the TAR BABY. by keeping all these issues boiling I suppose Biden might have a chance.

    Reply
  2. Avatar-Nate

    Serious click bait here .

    Come down and live a while in the Ghetto then tell me what you think .

    -Nate

    Reply
      • Avatar-Nate

        I know _you_ do Jack .

        I’m talking about all the keyboard cowboys and Monday morning quarterbacks here who blather on endlessly about things they clearly have no clue about .

        There’s a reason I’m so often silent here .

        FWIW, I watched George Floyd’s funeral and it was sad indeed as he shouldn’t have been killed -but- ~ they repeatedly LIED and said he was an “angel” when the facts are he was just one more crook who got caught, then he was summarily killed, this is wrong, so is refusing to accept the blame for creating a problem .

        -Nate

        Reply
  3. AvatarTW

    In The_Current_Year, it is impossible to have a real discussion on police violence because brings facts and reason to the table will get you ejected from any left-leaning social circle or forum. There aren’t even discussions, just recitations of leftist talking points. I should say that I actually am a leftist and I feel like “my” side has lost its mind on issues like policing and gun control.

    Roughly a thousand deaths due to police violence is less than the number of people die from falling down the stairs every year. It’s about the same number of people who die from drowning. It’s unbelievably unlikely that you will die in police custody. It’s like death from air travel: it’s so unlikely that it makes headlines, and the very newsworthiness of its rarity, ironically, persuades people that there is an epidemic of deaths.

    The discussion never gets to what proportion of killings by cop are justified. Out of 1000, is it 800? 700? 400? 200? What’s the number? What amount will satisfy people? Unless you draw a line in the sand, you’ll never be able to say, “Ok, we’re done. Stop the protests. 500 people were killed but they are were all justified killings. ” Which, I might venture, is actually the point. The Professional Protest crowd wants this to just go on for eternity to give their empty lives some kind of meaning.

    Reply
    • Avatarstingray65

      How many deaths by cop would you expect when:

      Unionized cops are virtually impossible to fire or discipline even for the most serious examples of negligence or incompetence?

      The most important criteria for hiring and promoting cops is diversity rather than competency and ability?

      Cops have more fire-power at their disposal than ever before, but face a criminal class with more fire-power at their disposal and less hesitancy to use it than ever before?

      Reply
  4. AvatarCJinSD

    If your two groups don’t know that this is all about the criminality of the Obama regime being laid bare in the senate, then we’ve got real problems.

    Reply
    • Avatarstingray65

      What are you talking about CJ? Everyone knows the Obama administration was absolutely scandal free – just ask the NYT, CNN, Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden and BH Obama. As soon as the Democrat mayors and governors can defund the police and consequently make peace with the Floyd protesters, I am sure Nadler, Schiff, and Pelosi will unveil the smoking gun that proves Trump’s collusion with Putin.

      Reply
  5. Avatarstingray65

    Why is this an emotional discussion? Why can’t it be a debate based on statistics and facts? Could it be that only one side has facts and statistics that back up their position? For example, can anyone name even one BLM supporter who has provided an example of:

    a Democrat controlled city where police (or any other public servant) are routinely fired for corruption/racism/incompetence?

    a black majority/controlled area anywhere in the world that has extremely low levels of violence, criminality, and poverty, and hence “prove” that black problems in the US are a function of 400 years of black oppression by whites?

    a Democrat controlled area that has reduced white-black gaps in income, wealth, education, and criminality?

    Reply
    • Avatarstingray65

      One more example of something I haven’t yet seen from a BLM supporter:

      even a single case of a black homicide by another black where the life of the victim mattered to BLM (or the mainstream media).

      Reply
    • Avatarscotten

      65 Stingray:

      I don’t think you understand – these people never learned right from wrong and the Whites have done all they could to repress them (despite huge education expenditures and years of sex education and many attempt to curb drug abuse)!!

      I try telling my kids that the law of land is pretty black and white & you can’t blame others for your not following it.

      Reply
  6. Avatarstingray65

    I enjoyed your real race car article Jack. It brings to mind how I used to follow NASCAR when they at least used something approaching stock bodies of production cars that were actually rear drive and available with a V-8. Back in those days there were lots of Confederate flags in the packed stands and infield, and Darlington had a race called Rebel 500. Wendell Scott was before my time, but somehow during an era of Jim Crow and segregation in the South he managed to build and race in NASCAR without getting traumatized or discouraged by fans wearing rebel hats singing Dixie. In fact, there were many great black athletes in other sports people such as Jesse Owens, Joe Louis, Jackie Robinson, Arthur Ashe, and Muhammad Ali who somehow managed to use their own abilities and effort to compete and win over fans of all colors even though racism and discrimination was legal and popular in many parts of the country during that time. Yet 50 years later, we need to erase or change history, take down statues, ban flags, and constantly monitor our micro-aggressions and white privilege because some snow flake who has never been denied entry to any school, workplace, or event might feel “unsafe” unless everything and everyone is totally woke. Does NASCAR think their decal cars, flag bans, and BLM car liveries are going to fill their empty stands and boost their dire TV ratings by attracting the Antifa and BLM crowds?

    Reply
    • Jack BaruthJack Baruth Post author

      I believe the term for what’s happened to NASCAR is “cordycepted”:

      http://www.amerika.org/politics/cordycepted/

      This is happening all across America because the people who own and operate pretty much every major corporation in the country are much closer to each other in thought and deed than they are to their actual customers. NASCAR’s bosses are much more worried about not being snubbed at New York dinners than they are about the needs and desires of their actual customers, regardless of whether those customers are white or black.

      Reply
      • Avatarstingray65

        I’m sure you are right Jack, but ultimately the corporate sponsors of race cars, race broadcasts, and race venues are paying money to have their brands/products shown and associated with something that puts fans in the seats or in front of the screen, and if those fans disappear so will the corporate money no matter how woke the sport is.

        I used to be a big fan of the NFL and NBA, but I haven’t watched more than a few highlights in years because of how Leftist the athletes, ownership, and league leadership have become. When millionaire black athletes in sports that are 70+% black start wearing pig socks, and taking a knee during the national anthem because of oppressive racism in America, I somehow find I have better things to do than support them by watching them play. They have a right to free speech, and I have a right to ignore them and their non-sense. And whatever sympathy or willingness to forgive I might have had went right out the window when the Leftist hypocrites ganged-up on Drew Brees for his recent flag and patriotism comments. Apparently I’m not alone, because the stands are no longer full for most of the teams around the league, and many are on their way to the new expression of American business – get woke, go broke.

        Reply
      • AvatarRonnie Schreiber

        I think we were better off when corporate leaders virtue signalled by putting more money into basic research. Stuff like that got us transistors.

        Reply
  7. AvatarJohn C.

    On the imagining the first owner of a cool old car article. I wouldn’t have thought you would be tearing into the legacy of the first owner to build up the poorer current owner who then only gets crushed, killed and burned by the burden that is the surviving car. I may be misreading, were you trying to make it a metaphor related to the tearing down of statues of old white heroes as a response to George Floyd?

    Reply
    • Jack BaruthJack Baruth Post author

      It was written before any of that — it’s more of a metaphor for how “enthusiasts” in the automotive industry will never be as important, or as valued, as the non-enthusiast people who buy Porsches and whatnot off the showroom floor.

      Reply
      • AvatarLynnG

        Important point ” enthusiasts in the automotive industry will never be important, or as valued, as the non-enthusiast people who buy Poirsches and whatnot off the showroom floor”

        That is the most important point that enthusiasts have to understand, “car companys are in the business of selling new cars, not yesterdays or last years, or last decades models” There is designed oblesence in automobiles for a reason, in the 1950’s and 1960’s and to a lesser extent the 1970’s when designers were the power center at the big three, every year the style changed. Who wanted to be seen in a two year old car when it looked so dated next to the newest model. Begining in the 1980’s and 1990’s the auto companys moved away from design and towards fuel effecency (why everything started to look alike, jelly beans anyone). In the 2000’s it has all been about technology, who can make the largest flat panel (you will not believe the size of the flat panel in the 2021 Escalade, but do not even think about what it will cost to replace when it fails in 2027). This is why you can not go to GM or Ford parts counter and find much of anything for a car 10 years or older. Car companys are not in the business of supporting old models they want you to by the latest and greatest. That is why if you take your 1999 Cadillac Sedan deVille to your local big city dealer, they will not service it… Our local Northern VA Cadillac dealers will not service any car more then 15 years old, they say they can not get parts.

        The most interest polar opposite of this is a little company called John Deere, if you have a 1968 model combine and you need a part, John Deere has it. If you have a 1961 V-Wheel row tractor and need a part John Deere has it. Now we will not say what said part may cost you but they are known for having parts for any vehicles they have ever built. That is how the people that collect antique tractors can restore them (for Jack’s urban followers, there are people that collect tractors, like some people collect Mazda Miatas or 57 Chevys).

        Reply
        • AvatarCJinSD

          Mercedes-Benz made the same claim about the immortality of their products and their product support thirty or so years ago, but they’ve since seemed to lose interest. Veblen goods baby! John Deere is synonymous with treating their customers as subjects now, as they declare that they have retained the intellectual property involved in maintaining the machines that they sell.

          Back when higher education and indoctrinated idiocy weren’t associated, the best car companies promised enduring quality as a value-add to first owners because it meant that you could buy the next one two years or three years in the future while painlessly trading in the one you’re lording over your neighbors today. The better cars sold a decade ago were massively durable. That’s part of the reason they’ve had such iron residuals and that working class people regulated out of the new car market have a way to get to work. Throw-away luxury and trickle-down fragility would make current cars useless as they age even if the Democrats weren’t scheming us into Venezuela in order to accrue the power they lust after to serve evil.

          Reply
          • AvatarJohn C.

            Isn’t there an MB factory owned and operated center in California that will refurbish any old Benz. Did it close?

            The old resale thing about MB more had to do with how fast new prices were rising. That it became unsustainable was the silver lining of the Lexus/Infiniti 90s German onslaught horror.

          • Avatar-Nate

            Yes John ;

            M-B has two classic centers, one on each coast, the California one is in Irvine and I get many parts there.

            Still and all they don’t make every thing for every Mercedes ever….

            The most popular Mercedes ever was the W123 series ad the list of N.L.A. parts is growing every larger….

            The blush flew off the Diesel powered Mercedes over 10 years ago .

            -Nate

          • Avatarstingray65

            That is one reason that John Deere equipment from the 1970s and 80s with low hours bring big bucks. Those tractors are new enough to have most of the modern conveniences and power, but are far easier to do DIY repairs and less electronic stuff to break.

      • Avatar-Nate

        ” “enthusiasts” in the automotive industry will never be as important, or as valued, as the non-enthusiast people who buy Porsches and whatnot off the showroom floor.”

        DUH .

        No one is in business to make friends, they’re all in business to make money and us gear heads don’t pay the bills, plain and simple and this is right and proper .

        Sad but true .

        -Nate

        Reply
        • AvatarJohn C.

          As Jack got into in the Neon/Cobalt SS article who were the gearheads were the domestic engineers. I wish I believed that hadn’t past into history.

          Reply
          • AvatarLynnG

            John C,
            Yes, there is a center for restoration of older models, here is the link:

            https://www.mbusa.com/en/classic-center

            But remember the old rule in shopping for a house in Brentwood, CA, River Oaks, TX, or McLean, VA, “If you have to ask how much it costs, you can not afford it”.. 🙂 🙂 🙂

      • Avatarstingray65

        Your point about how many enthusiast automobiles are purchases new by non-enthusiasts is interesting, but the more important question from a brand management perspective is what makes an enthusiast automotive brand? Does the 65 year old buying a new Porsche, Aston Martin, or Corvette with all the bells and whistles mostly because he or his trophy wife care about showing off their wealth, success, and good taste make the brand attractive to enthusiasts who can’t afford a new one? Or does the 65 year old who sacrificed and bought a new Porsche, Aston, Corvette, or Mustang 40 years ago and enthusiastically keeps it polished and/or still uses it for a track day or marque club rally make the brand attractive to enthusiasts? Or how about the 35 year old who buys a ratty 50 year old Porsche, Aston, Corvette, or Mustang and restores or resto-mods it, perhaps as a family project working with his wife, father or son make the brand attractive to enthusiasts? And if these true enthusiasts who rarely buy a new model of their favorite brand didn’t care about the heritage, design, and performance of the “enthusiast” brands and instead just bought a new or late model mid-level trim Camry or CR-V like most people, would the 65 year old and his trophy wife who regularly buys/leases a new Porsche, Aston, Corvette, or Mustang find them nearly as attractive signals of their success in life and good taste?

        Reply
  8. AvatarGrahambo

    Fantastic article, Jack. Have been waiting on your take and you did not disappoint. Wish that even 10% of the critical thinking and dispassionate approach you display herein could be found in the (inter)national discussion but alas that is not to be.

    Reply
  9. AvatarAcd

    Your First Owner piece is possibly the most Jack Baruth thing you’ve ever written and will be what I share with people who have never read you before to give them a taste of your writing. It reminds me of some of your early TTAC pieces only with another decade of experience under your belt. Up until now I’ve steered them towards the opening paragraphs of your 2011 Mitsubishi Eclipse Convertible review which were all completely spot on.

    Reply
  10. Avatararbuckle

    Unfortunately, things are probably going to get worse. The gulf between American ideologies looks like 1860 and the last few weeks have shown that there is far more moral conflict within the military and police than people knew.

    I’m not a “2nd Civil War” person, but a domestic mass causality event seems likelier every day.

    Reply
      • Avatarscotten

        I’m not really a big Trump fan but that talk started when Hillary lost the election. Only sore losers try to change the rules when they lose the game…

        Reply
  11. AvatarNewbie Jeff

    More than a year ago, but less than two years ago (I don’t remember exactly when), I was standing outside of my buddy’s business at around midnight… as we were talking and enjoying the nice night, I became aware of animated voices that had turned into an argument, somewhere across the street behind a shopping center. It was clearly a man and a woman, and both were black. As my buddy and I listened, the argument quickly escalated and got physical…

    My first instinct was to immediately intervene. But as my buddy and I decided what to do, something occurred to me… the guy beating the woman was black, and I was white. The reality of such a scenario in America these days introduces the possibility of consequences that would reach far beyond my own physical harm… the reality is that once the media, and the progressive mob get a hold of you, and have branded you a racist and an oppressor, the truth of what happened or would have happened simply doesn’t matter… perhaps this is awareness… or selfishness… or even cowardice… but intervening wasn’t worth the destruction of my livelihood, character, and identity at the hands of American progressivism. We were on the phone with 911 when we saw she was on the ground and he was kicking her…

    …a police officer showed up in a few minutes. Probably about 25-27 years old, white guy. He briefly checked on the woman, asked us if we knew where the guy went, and took off on a search behind the shopping center in the direction we had last seen him heading…

    …how often does that guy deal with that situation in a shift? How many shifts does he work in a year? For how many years? Hate the police all you want… but they go where you won’t go, they deal with the people you don’t want to deal with, and they are on the front lines of a ideological war with almost no “allies”… certainly not among the elected leaders who demand they keep cities safe, nor among the media that will tell the story about the time they went looking for a violent criminal behind a shopping center at midnight and it all went terribly wrong…

    Reply
    • Avatar-Nate

      Thanx Jeff ;

      You’re bang spot on .

      I was a tiny cog in the police dept. so I got to meet the blue suits and see what goes on behind closed doors .

      They work in absolute shit to their waists every day .

      My personal belief is that most cops are good, they simply get a jaundiced look at life through the lens of their job ~ who ever calls to say ‘we’re having a nice picnic, please come join us’ ? .

      Unlike most here I have lived where there were zero cops and where the cops were as bent as bent can be, I’ll take the American version every time .

      They need better training and to be held accountable .

      George Floyd was a loser jerkoff, most of the black folks I know agree .

      He still didn’t deserve to die for what he did .

      Where there’s smoke there’s fire .

      Lying or obfuscating doesn’t change reality .

      -Nate

      Reply
      • Avatarhank chinaski

        ‘Deserves got nothing to do with it.’

        The response to these characters, by both the aggrieved (racial) and falsely sympathetic (media, business and political) parties, is telling. The most infamous of these killings occur during the commission of a violent felony, or in this case by a previous violent felon committing a relatively petty crime. The former’s response suggests an entitlement to misbehavior and are aggrieved at being noticed, let alone punished. The latter, particularly with the woke capital, purgings, and knee-bending is more insidious. ‘You *will* tolerate this and love the party, Winston.’

        In a non-clown world, the EMT Taylor would have been a sympathetic martyr for violent police overreach in a no-knock. Instead, we get a probable drug overdose during what may come out as a sanctioned police hold. Something smells regarding them knowing each other and working together as bouncers (drugs? prostitution? money laundering?) and will hopefully come out in trial.

        Existing police will be saying ‘fuck it, poolside’ in droves, and why not? I, like most, don’t risk getting shot/stabbed/run over/beaten in my line of work. Decent men won’t join up to replace them. A world with paid vigilante security is not one we want like to live in, either.

        BLM is the violent arm of the far left. From the responses of the uniparty, prostration on one side and inaction on the other, they are completely on board.

        That said, SPAZ is great comic relief. They should open colonies in the Portland, the Upper East Side, Foggy Bottom, etc.

        Reply
  12. Avatarltrftc

    Jack,
    I enjoyed reading your take on things, however one point that I’d be keen to explore further is that Australia proves that frontier / border towns situations don’t necessarily result in violence for generations on end.

    I’d put it to you that the police in the USA are trained to deal with the highly likely situation that they will encounter a civilian that is armed to the teeth, which provides a combination mindset, weapons, and decisions under stress that result in a high number of Americans being killed by the police. It’s a systemic issue which as you correctly concluded “we are all going to fight on that lie. For a long time to come.”

    Reply
    • Avatarstingray65

      Interesting comment. Historically, Australia has had a far more homogeneous population that the US, with British bloodlines dominating until WWII, and a small non-slave aboriginal population mostly living in separate outlying areas. Post-WWII saw increased immigration from other European countries that shared white/Christian heritage and values but brought better cuisine, and more recently there has been heavy immigration from Asia who have different skin tones, heritage, and values, but are generally non-violent, law-abiding, smart, and hard-working. In virtually all cases, Australia has been able to control the number and type of people they let in, which is made easier by being an island continent, and therefore been able to keep out the culturally incompatible, the unskilled, and those with violent tendencies. It will be interesting to see if greater conflict emerge as Asian wealth continues to drive major Australian city real estate prices into the stratosphere and price out the locals, but it is hard to imagine Australian versions of the crazy race riots and conflicts seen in the US, which are almost entirely driven by the destructive black culture and their consequent lack of success that is made even more difficult by lots of low skilled “immigrants” from south of the border.

      Reply
      • Avatarltrftc

        You were right about most aspects of Australia’s history, however the aboriginal population was enslaved (look up the term blackbirding) and it was also small because they were slaughtered such as in Tasmania where there was a complete genocide.

        Reply
        • Avatarstingray65

          Thanks for the suggestion, but it appears that most blackbirding was about bringing in natives from outside Australia by hook or crook to work in agricultural industries, and that most were not true slaves but working on a contract for some sort of poor payment. The only reference I found to aboriginal blackbirding was related the west coast pearling operations, but this seems to have been in small numbers. Tasmania is unfortunately notorious for lots of slaughter including native peoples and animals. Thus I would argue that the treatment and outcome with regards to Australian aboriginal issue is much more similar to the American Indians than African blacks imported as slaves. Not that any of these are things to be proud of, but once the Indian wars were “settled” there has been relatively little violent conflict between aboriginals/Indians and the dominant white populations of Australia/US, as compared with the continuing struggles and conflicts between black descendants of slaves and whites.

          Reply
  13. Avatarstingray65

    Nate wrote above something that is very important:
    “I watched George Floyd’s funeral and it was sad indeed as he shouldn’t have been killed -but- ~ they repeatedly LIED and said he was an “angel” when the facts are he was just one more crook who got caught, then he was summarily killed, this is wrong, so is refusing to accept the blame for creating a problem .”

    George Floyd, Eric Garner, Freddie Gray, Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin – what do they all have in common besides and early death that was helped along by a white man (or white Hispanic)? None of them ever accomplished anything positive in their shortened lives. They weren’t model students or employees, they weren’t leaders in their communities or churches, they weren’t good family men who supported their parents, women, and children, and they were good role models for anyone except thugs. In short, they were all never-do-wells- and career criminals who unfortunately died while committing a crime. If they had been white or killed by a black cop or neighborhood watch member, none of them would have received any media coverage and it is likely their “killers” would never have been charged or arrested. Yet because their deaths support the BLM/Leftist narrative of systemic racism they are treated as fallen heroes and martyrs for the cause of social justice, but what does it say about the movement when these are the best cases they have to support their agenda?

    Meanwhile, “grieving” rioters and looters are burning down police stations manned by people tasked with the difficult job of maintaining order in violent neighborhoods filled with George Floyds and Michael Browns, and destroying businesses often owned by hard working people of color who are trying to earn an honest living by serving neighborhoods that would otherwise suffer from a lack of employment opportunities, tax revenues, and local amenities that these business supply. They are also tearing down statues of people whom 99% have likely never even heard of (after all its not like modern schools actually teach history), because the people the statues commemorate made some life choices 150 or 250 years ago that don’t correspond to modern sensibilities of social justice, but were perfectly legal and even popular in their time. In fact, it is safe to say that even the worst cops on the beat, and every owner of a burned out business, or person represented by a “controversial” statue has lived much more exemplary lives than any of our modern day “heroes” such a George Floyd, and the media, Democrats, and “activists” are just too stupid to see any of it.

    Reply
  14. AvatarDirty Dingus McGee

    Last night the SHTF here in metro Atlanta

    https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/atlanta/protesters-take-atlanta-streets-3rd-weekend-after-death-black-man-hands-apd/E4AMA3EGXNG75F5WFZCO5X6SQ4/

    I don’t know who is right and who is wrong as I wasn’t there. What I DO know is that I, a white male, have had more interactions with the police than most black males, because of what I wear. You see, I’m a member of a motorcycle club. Because of the cloth on my back, you can bet that I will be pulled over at least once a month for usually bullshit reasons, the best being “improper lane usage”( not maintaining perfect distance from a white/yellow line). After nearly 20 years of this, I’m used to it and have my routine down. All my “papers” are in a baggie in a top pocket of my vest. Hands stay on the handlebars until the cop is at my side. I don’t argue anymore, but used to, I don’t give any but the briefest possible answer to any question and never volunteer any information. No you cannot search my bike. I have shown you my CCL and told you I was armed before you ever spoke. You will NOT find a safety violation on my bike, beyond a slightly louder than stock exhaust (no straight pipes for me).

    End result? In those nearly 20 years I’ve yet to be shot, be the cop white, black or purple, no matter how much some will try to antagonize me. I’ve seen that movie and didn’t like the ending. I’m by no means kissing their ass, but I know the game they’re playing, I’m just better at than they are..

    Reply
    • Avatarstingray65

      I’ve seen the video – it appears the black “victim” fell asleep in the Wendy’s drive-thru lane and when police arrived they found him to be drunk and were going to take him in for DWI, when he violently resisted arrest, tried grabbing the taser and gun of one of the arresting officers, knocked them both off balance and proceeded to run away with the taser when he was shot by one of the officers. Since no one but hair salon owners and surfers seems to get locked up anymore, especially if they are black victims of systemic racism, I just don’t understand why anyone would resist arrest.

      Apparently a crowd of protesters decides to get justice by burning the Wendy’s to the ground – I mean how dare they call “racist” police when a black victim of systemic racism temporarily blocks their ability to earn money by serving drive-thru customers – greedy capitalist pigs – burn, baby, burn.

      Reply
      • AvatarRonnie Schreiber

        Atlanta police are looking for a white, Antifa-clad lady for the Wendy’s fire. There is a video circulating shot by a black woman calling her out as she lights the fire.

        Reply
        • AvatarDirty Dingus McGee

          There are 2 narratives going around locally; One, also on video but rarely seen since the first night, shows a black guy launching some type of fireworks thru the broken window. The second shows the white girl squirting some type of liquid on a possible fire. Being as both were filmed by the Twitterati, they are blurry, shaky, and shot from a distance away so it’s hard, at least for most rational people, to be certain exactly what is going on for sure, crowd reaction be damned.

          Remember, this is the same type of crowd that screams police brutality, when a cop smacks and arrests someone who just ran up and smacked that cop with something, which is also being filmed.

          Reply
  15. AvatarNewbie Jeff

    I have a couple of questions for Ronnie Schreiber and “stingray65″…

    …a while ago, I made a series of comments that reflected my generally pessimistic outlook for the future of the United States. You indicated that you’ve lived through tumultuous times before. You both replied that (paraphrasing) although there are blips and spikes in perceived threats to the country’s future, my cynicism was generally unwarranted. I believe someone said, don’t worry, “the country is not going to hell”…

    As a regular reader, I look forward to your comments. You have more experience and eloquence than I have… so the questions are: do you still stand by that assertion? Is this just a “blip”, or are you now actually worried that the country might be facing threats that it cannot survive?

    Reply
    • Avatarstingray65

      Thanks for the kind words Jeff, although I don’t remember specifically saying “the country is not going to Hell” to one of your comments. As a student of history who has lived through some “interesting” times, I think it is safe to say that most warnings of imminent dangers and societal collapse prove to be exaggerated or work themselves out without major trauma. After all, the country was founded on a revolution against the most powerful country in the world, and survived a murderous Civil War over slavery, two World Wars, and a Great Depression. My earliest memories are of very bad events during the 1960s with racial riots, big name assassinations, and Vietnam war escalation and protests that deeply split the country. I remember gas lines and walking to school during the 1970s when it was -40 degrees and the magazine covers and President Carter were talking about global cooling and the imminent exhaustion of all oil supplies. I also remember how during the 1980s that Reagan was portrayed by the media and prominent Democrats as stupid, racist, warmonger who would kill the country with a nuclear war with Russia. And yet after all these gloomy events and “dangerous” people, the US is still here and is by most measures the best place in the world to live and prosper, which is one reason to be very saddened by recent events, because all the current upheavals are based on trivialities and lies.

      For example, slavery ended in 1865, Jim Crow and the KKK have been gone as a political force for almost 60 years, and a black man was elected twice to the Presidency as recently as 2012, and yet today we burn down cities and have serious calls to terminate police departments due to systemic racism as evidenced by a few black criminals who unfortunately died while resisting arrest? The Spanish Flu killed about 700,000 in the US and 50 million globally – most in the prime of life, and we didn’t shut down the economy, but Covid-19 kills 100,000 mostly senior citizens and the extremely ill and we shut down everything (except for Floyd protests)? Hitler, Stalin, and Mao truly were evil people who killed over 100 million people, and yet Trump is often compared to them and was impeached for making a pleasant phone call to the Ukraine. Why have we gone so crazy over such small issues?

      I would attribute current rampant craziness to the total Leftist domination of the media/social media, education/academia, law, entertainment, government bureaucracies, and corporate HR departments and executive suites. Leftists are by their nature deeply unhappy about human nature, and are always wanting to “fix it”, which means they typically are deeply offended by anyone who doesn’t want to be fixed and/or anyone who points out the failed human nature of the Leftists themselves and/or anyone who offers statistical analysis that points to Leftist failures. This is why Leftists don’t like debates, and why unchecked Leftism always results in totalitarian societies with lots of political prisons, re-education camps, and death squads.

      Unfortunately for Leftists, most of the serious human problems of unequal opportunity and environmental degradation in the US have been solved for over 50 years, and only the unfixable problems of human nature and physics continue to exist. No government program can improve low IQ, or replace the positive benefits of two parent families, or allow interpretive dance majors to earn as much as engineers, or make diverse cultures that are rapidly allowed to co-mingle turn into a cohesive and peaceful co-existence, or invent solar panels that are as efficient and reliable as coal, nuclear or oil, and Leftists don’t want to hear it. Instead they double-down and now have the new tool of social media to enable these relatively small groups of Leftist radicals and discontents to quickly, cheaply, and easily and quickly bully, deplatform, and cancel the free speech, careers, and social lives of opponents (aka rational people) with the full cooperation of the platform owners, the mainstream media, academia, and the Democrat party. This is the big problem that are ancestors never had to deal with, and why trivial issues and outright lies have become so powerful. Fortunately, we still have the 2nd amendment and several hundred million sane citizens who are armed and know how to shoot (and who are parents to most of our military and much of the police and national guard), which I believe is the only thing keeping the Left from banning free elections, Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and what remains of our other Constitutional rights. Will we work through this social media Leftist threat? History says we will, but I think sane people need to be vigilant and fight back by being careful who they support with their business, contributions, investments, and votes.

      Reply
      • AvatarNewbie Jeff

        “I would attribute current rampant craziness to the total Leftist domination of the media/social media, education/academia, law, entertainment, government bureaucracies, and corporate HR departments and executive suites…”

        I agree completely, thus my cynicism… they own every institution and platform of influence in media, policy, and commerce. If there’s anything the last few weeks have revealed, it’s that the country belongs to the Left now… and they don’t want us here.

        So what now, Democrats take power in the Senate and White House just so we can get back to the “new normal” they’re promising? Or Trump is re-elected and the American Left continues to set fire to our society like an auto parts store? The election won’t matter anyway, because the losing party will claim fraud and deem the results illegitimate. And I don’t see a significant correction of public opinion, considering recent data shows 53% of Americans support BLM (and thus “reparations”, property “collectivism” ala S. African-style, and dismantling police departments). There doesn’t seem to be many positive outcomes here…

        I have an opportunity to move to England and I am seriously considering it.

        Reply
          • AvatarNewbie Jeff

            “Unfortunately, England (especially London) is equally or more crazy Leftist than the US”

            That’s a fair point… I’ve spent a lot of time in Oxford, and I’m convinced that every insane notion that runs through progressive circles in America is born at Oxford University. They’re currently removing statues and memorials to Cecil Rhodes (of Rhodes Scholar origin)…

            …however, there’s a distinct difference in England: English culture is nearly 1000 years old. That’s a lot of time to refine it, invest in it, and preserve it. I can’t cite specific data, but the general attitude I pick up is that most English feel connected to their culture, it’s theirs and they belong to it… they don’t want to change it. There are certainly exceptions (again, notably in London and Oxford), but the majority of English seem to appreciate what they have going on here…

            …on the contrary, I feel like the vast majority of Americans could easily be guilted/tricked into throwing American culture and history into the trash… which is, of course, the intended result of an American education. Does anyone here really think the Washington Monument or Mt Rushmore will still be around 100 years from now? Much less 1000? In a not-too-distant American future, one could easily see the only “approved” public memorial is a kneeling Colin Kaepernick…

          • Avatarstingray65

            I’m sure you are right that the majority of English bloodlines living outside the major cities (i.e. the people who voted for Brexit) still love their country and its culture and institutions, but the same can be said of the US – look at a maps of the US election results by county colored red or blue depending on the result – the whole country voted for Trump in 2016 outside a few major cities. But the media lives in those bubble cities in both the UK and the US, so they think their crazy Leftist neighbors and co-workers represent “mainstream opinion”, and it is that crazy viewpoint that gets all the positive media coverage. Throw in the Leftist lunatics fringe that has become very effective at leveraging social media to shut-down the sane majority, throw in a bunch of legal and illegal immigrants who don’t share the same heritage and culture (and who most often live in Leftist bubble cities), and that is how you end up where Western Culture is in danger of losing to the barbarian Left.

            If you look at Boris Johnson and the Tory positions on most issues, you will see that if they were in the US they would clearly be in agreement most often with the Left-wing of the Democrat party. Which is why I think they may be even farther gone than the US.

    • AvatarRonnie Schreiber

      Things were pretty rough in the ’60s, but then the establishment was interested in maintaining the American republic. As Stingray65 has pointed out, after the Gramscian march through the institutions, it appears that the establishment either endorses the nonsense or is afraid to speak out against the mob.

      I’m hoping that the folks who decide elections, like the legendary Macomb County Reagan Democrats, are paying attention to the goal post moving and gaslighting during the pandemic and now with anti-police demonstrations.

      Reply
      • Avatarrambo furum

        I can never tell if the bizarre phrase “Gramscian march through the institutions” is a veiled term for the Frankfurt School or not.

        Reply
        • AvatarRonnie Schreiber

          The phrase “long march through the institutions” was coined in the late ’60s or early ’70s by Rudi Dutschke, a German communist that was influenced by Gramsci, an Italian who died in the late 1930s. Gramsci was a socialist who favored taking over institutions and cultures as a opposed to fomenting revolution. Gramsci wasn’t part of the Frankfurt School, which was actually a department at Goethe University. I don’t know if Gramsci ever had contacts with members of the Frankfurt school or not, though there seems to have been some connection between Dutschke and Herbert Marcuse, who was part of the Frankfurt group. The Frankfurt School were mostly theoreticians, not revolutionaries and produced critiques of marxist-leninism as well as capitalism. They came to America in the 1930s more to escape the Nazis than to spread socialism.

          I tried reading Marcuse in high school. Dense, self validating gobbledeegook. He had some crazy ideas about pedagogy as well, that you needed to first confuse a student before teaching them the truth (well, as he saw the truth). To me that sounds more like brainwashing and mind control than education.

          Reply
          • Avatarrambo furum

            Thank you. I’ve heard the phrase, but never heard it associated with Gramsci, so I always associate it with the Frankfurt School which is generally regarded as the birthplace of cultural marxism.

      • AvatarNewbie Jeff

        “I’m hoping that the folks who decide elections, like the legendary Macomb County Reagan Democrats, are paying attention to the goal post moving and gaslighting during the pandemic and now with anti-police demonstrations”

        Good point, but my concern is that even if they are paying attention, it won’t matter… Trump’s re-election would merely amplify the political warfare weapons that have already been deployed to depose him. I feel like one thing is for sure: should Trump win in Nov, his administration will not survive the second term… especially if Democrats take the senate. If you are visible in the administration, you are now fully aware of what the administration’s enemies are capable of… is that worth everything you hold dear, up to and including your personal freedom? There WILL be another scandal… another “Russia”, another “Ukraine”, and there will be no limit to what Democrats will do to bring his administration down. All of this conducted in an environment where the media has no qualms about – literally – broadcasting its partisan intentions.

        This is IF he wins…

        Reply
  16. AvatarTexn

    Newbie Jeff, I asked my dad a similar question. He is in his early-70s, me in my late-30s. He felt this is similar to the riots in 67-68, and a few years afterwards. Add in a stagnating economy and a war no one liked- it seemed bad at the time.

    However, One of the biggest difference was that you only watched the nightly news. The information wasn’t a constant stream like it is now; paper in the morning, Cronkite at night. Now it’s constant and less objective. Sad.

    Reply
  17. Avatartrollson

    Well, the real answer is to abolish public unions, but that won’t be a very popular idea with the commie crowd.

    Reply
    • Avatarstingray65

      The Democrats have run virtually all the cities that have experienced “racist” cop killings/beatings of black “victims” for decades, all the while promising police reform and an end to systemic racism, so it is ironic (tragic?) that the “victim” BLM and “racist” police unions are both major sources of campaign contributions to the Democrat party.

      Reply
    • Avatarrambo furum

      Isn’t it funny how, in the trades and other private labor, unions serve to guarantee workmanship and safety standards, but public unions serve only to siphon off more of the taxpayer’s money and protect members from any sort of accountability?

      Reply
      • Avatarstingray65

        The difference is the private sector unions are limited in the parasitic damage they can do to their employer (aka host) by the profits that can be generated in the marketplace and possible threat of bankruptcy if the demands become too great and kill the “host”. Furthermore, private sector unions negotiate with managers whose primary goal is to look out for the rights of shareholders. In contrast, public sector unions can always tell their “hosts” to raise taxes to meet their demands, and the Democrat government officials they negotiate with typically have much more incentive to look out for union members than taxpayers, because the unions are a primary source of campaign contributions and votes for Democrats. This is why even Lefties such as FDR were against public sector unions.

        Reply
        • AvatarJMcG

          Managers whose primary goal is to look out for the rights of shareholders. That might be their primary responsibility, but their primary goal is to fill their pockets.

          Reply
  18. AvatarRonnie Schreiber

    Regarding George Floyd’s criminal history, how many people today know that Miranda, of the famous “Miranda warning” given to criminal suspects, was a serial rapist, or that Gideon, whose case now ensures that criminal defendants must be represented by an attorney, was a career criminal thief and burglar?

    Unfortunately, by racializing the genuine problem of police misbehavior, the core problems will not be addressed. Too many of our cops would serve on any police force, not just those entrusted with protecting people’s rights.

    Reply
  19. AvatarRonnie Schreiber

    Every year, less than 50 “unarmed” people are killed by police in America, about a third of them are black, and while that is disproportionate compared to blacks’ percentage of the general population, it *is* proportionate to the number of police encounters with blacks. While I’m deeply opposed to police misconduct and believe LEOs’ primary obligation is to protect the rights of Americans, in country of ~330 million people, those few dozen police killings are close to a statistical anomoly. You’re about as likely to get hit by lightning and in any case racializing the police misconduct problem will not address the foundational problems.

    That being said, about a dozen “unarmed” (with a broad definition) blacks are killed every year by police (the Wash Post can’t decide if it was 9 or 15 last year), on average about one a month. From here till the November election, the media will amplify every one of those killings (ignoring the whites similarly killed) to stir up more protests and rioting, all for the sake of ginning up the black vote against Trump. Without 85% of the national black vote, Democrats simply cannot elect their presidential candidate.

    If you note, when Obama was president, there was rioting in Ferguson, MO and Baltimore, MD over blacks who died at police hands, but there were no organized nationwide protests.

    There are bad cops. Some of them are racists. Many blacks take it as a point of faith that American police are hunting down and killing blacks. While that’s very close to a lie, perception is often more important than reality, and blacks’ perception of the police puts an edge on just about every encounter with LEOs. Leftists are promoting that lie and either tacitly or actively supporting the rioting.

    Reply
    • Avatarstingray65

      All the police killing of “unarmed” blacks have been in Democrat run cities and mostly Democrat run states, and all the worst riots, looting, and arson are in Democrat run cities and states. Furthermore, none of the cops involved in any of the recent black killings are Republicans or Trump supporters, otherwise the media would be all over that angle. And Democrats and the their media agents think that highlighting every police killing of a black during the coming months will lead blacks to vote Democrat to solve the problem? I wish I could say I don’t see how that could possibly work, but blacks have been voting for descendants of slave owners and the KKK for decades so it probably will.

      Reply
  20. Avatardanio

    I’ve had some very interesting conversations with both woke and red pill types about the BLM movement and the issue of police violence. A few years ago I wrote a well received thesis paper on the issue which I put a lot of effort into researching, because this issue matters to me. Not in a racial justice sort of way, but a general justice sort of way. So I have a pretty good handle on the issue, and my stance is I don’t like misplaced state on individual violence, regardless of race.

    What’s really interesting to me about the BLM aspect of the problem is the gatekeeping that surrounds it. It makes me question what the true motives are. Social Problems 101 dictates that if you as a group want to solve a social problem, you need to find ways to bring others into the problem. Show them that the problem affects them, so they get scared and angry enough to act on the issue as well. Strength in Numbers. This is how gun control action works. Disproportionate coverage of school shootings and in places not as familiar with violence and largely ignore the mountains of body bags due to gang violence.

    But this case is different. While black people are indeed over-represented in police killings, people of other races still make up over 3/4 of the victims. Research shows bad cops will pick on anyone, regardless of race. So if we’re protesting Police Brutality, wouldn’t it make sense to include people of those other races? Apparently not, because the sentiment today is that as a white person, you are not allowed into this discussion unless it is on behalf of black people, lest be cast out. Even then, as Jack noted, there’s a strong sense of exclusion and vetting going on of those grovelling allies caught in the purity spiral.

    What’s the end game then? Certainly not unity.

    Reply
  21. AvatarTristan Yates

    The ballad of the first owner cuts pretty deep – I think I would have been happier not knowing how much better their life is than my own. But I did love reading it.

    Reply

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