‘There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know’.
As fate would have it, this past week I was part of two fairly stout discussions on abortion. The first one was a personal discussion about the topic. Well, it started out as a general discussion, a time-killer to keep me awake while I was on the long run fron Franklin, TN to Montgomery, AL, but it turned personal very quickly. It wasn’t just that we were on opposite sides of the fence; it was that we had made different decisions when faced with not-so-disparate situations. If the mother’s life could be at risk, what do you do about the child? I remember the decision that I helped make, it wasn’t that long ago:
The person with whom I was having the conversation made the opposite decision. So we have no photo, at least none that wouldn’t be too much for even the non-squeamish among my readers.
Anyway, we squabbled about this for the better part of ninety minutes before somebody hung up on somebody, and I was troubled for the rest of the drive. The whole conversation didn’t need to happen. Neither one of us was going to convince the other one. All that happened was that she felt I was insulting her morality/character/whatever and I felt she was glossing-over the killing of what I felt to be a real person just like you or me. So I resolved that I wasn’t going to have that conversation with her or anyone like her ever, ever again.
Naturally, 48 hours later the same argument pops up on TTAC, with even less reason for it. The original story was about our title-pawn king Steve Lang and one of his less reliable customers. Someone had to bring abortion into it, for reasons that still escape me. At that point, shit got real in a hurry. I was heading back to Columbus by then and hadn’t seen the site for more than a few hours, so it fell to my brother to calm everybody down and announce that there’d be no more discussion on the topic. Shortly afterwards, one of our readers and commenters, “Kenmore”, posted the above.
Now, keep in mind that we didn’t shut the discussion down in a way that favored either side. We just said — hey, dumbasses, a car forum isn’t the best place to make your case for abortion on demand or fetal humanity. Everybody but Kenmore was pretty much okay with that. We didn’t go back and censor people, we didn’t disappear the discussion, we didn’t “move it to #notawesome” or whatever Jalopnik is doing lately to keep people from arguing. We just halted it. Apparently, that was too much for our reader, so he quit. I wonder if he’ll stay quit?
The older I get, the less I want to argue polarizing issues or even discuss them. It doesn’t seem like anybody ever comes away from those arguments with anything other than a strengthened sense of self-righteousness or victimization. But somehow, somewhere, these arguments must be taking place in a way that actually sways people on one direction or another. Otherwise, how would people who haven’t had to make a decision about an abortion have an opinion on abortion? How would people who know literally nothing about how guns operate have an opinion on gun control? Why would people keep writing that the Viper is too difficult to drive?
Jack, as a privileged white male patriarch, how dare you offer thoughts on abortion!? I jest of course…great pic BTW!
Back when RF ran it there was a somewhat tounge-in-cheek rule that you had to bring it back to cars. When these Godwinesque topics came up if I could not restrain myself I would post something like “The so-called ‘War On Poverty’ has done more harm than Hitler, making you worse than Hitler’ and that is why a Miata with a Mustang engine is superior to a Cobra!” Even if it makes no sense you have to at least come up with a car related thought.
Does this mean I can hijack this thread into a Firearms rant ? . =8-) .
I am *so* glad my Son was born , even if he _did_ run into and break my garage door then never fix it , or steal and crash my vintage 5 speed Suzuki or…..
never mind , I love him more than life itself .
-Nate
I try my best, in all things, to remain a moderate. A centrist. Even if I may myself hold strong beliefs on a subject, or should I say, especially if I hold strong beliefs on a subject, it falls on me to research the other side of an issue to at least appreciate opposing viewpoints.
Like Jack, long ago I learned that arguing deeply personal issues like abortion, religion, and yes Nate, the second amendment, “converting” the opposition is impossible. What’s necessary, however, is civil discourse, and continual striving for common ground.
In this red-state, blue-state, gerrymandered political environment we’ve created, we’ve got extremism ruling both parties on both sides of the aisle, each side appeasing their increasingly right or left wing extremists back home, and having to pass a litmus test within their own parties.
Todd Purdum’s excellent new book, A Idea Whose TIme Has Come, covers the passing of the Civil Rights Act in 1964. And it illustrates a time when division in America was just as strong as it is today, but compromise was possible. That we were, as a people, willing to meet each other half-way. And that history teaches us progress always comes from the middle, not the extremes.
Sorry your friend hung up in a huff. And that Kenmore has decided to bail on TTAC. Both are, sadly, a sign of the times.
“The older I get, the less I want to argue polarizing issues or even discuss them. It doesn’t seem like anybody ever comes away from those arguments with anything other than a strengthened sense of self-righteousness or victimization.”
same here. I’m as disinterested in the moanings of aging Boomers who think the 1950s United States was paradise for everyone as I am the up-and-coming kids who read Hobbes or Rand and think nihilism/objectivism is The Truth.
the sad thing is I think it happens to all of us. I was once that 19-year-old knowitall, and I’m pretty sure I’ll become that crotchety old get-off-my-lawn old man. I just hope I can fight like hell to fend off the latter as long as possible.
As an aging Boomer and child of the ’60’s, I resent that. Let’s have a pointless argument now so Jack can ban both of us.
Jack, great picture. I think you made the correct decision, but that’s just me.
Meanwhile, I hope the argument isn’t fatal to the relationship you (may have) had.
Doesn’t matter whether talking to to so called ‘conservatives’ or so called ‘liberals’, strongly held positions on the most divisive topical subjects are strenuously maintained, no matter the facts surrounding a subject.
“The quality of our discourse is the limit of our civilization” Juliann Assange.
Almost certainly a bad idea to argue abortion regardless of your belief system. I am an atheist and I don’t think you can argue tho point effectively unless you have a uterus. Decisions that you or we may have made do not make any of us more qualified to explain why our decision was the correct one. This decision is too private and too rife with issues to even engage in a conversation. Happy endings in this realm are not always what they seem and any happy ending has further implications that may not be readily apparent.
Lets just let those amongst us who have the equipment, participate in the discussion without judgement or ridiculous dogma.
It’s amazing how some topics can suddenly pop in on a car blog. It even happens on relatively sedate CC. I did a post comparing an ’86 Continental to a Hyundai Santa Fe. A guy was pissing and moaning about my comparing a first gen-Santa Fe to a fat man sitting on a bar stool. It quickly turned into a one-sided (not mine) rant on censorship, conservatism (???) and other decidedly non-automotive things. A hard shell helps in dese ‘tings.